Summary of Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185

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In the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, retired senior scientist Wallace Manheimer reflects on his long career at the Naval Research Lab and discusses his current focus on fusion and fusion breeding. Manheimer believes that fusion breeding is the most likely option for meeting the world's energy needs, as it is overlooked by both the fusion and fishing communities. He emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and supporting diverse energy sources and urging less developed countries to improve their energy use. Manheimer shares his concerns about energy efficiency and the use of coal and other non-renewable sources in less developed countries. He underlines the importance of recognizing the limitations of converting certain forms of energy and the overall energy efficiency of highly efficient technologies like electric cars. Manheimer then introduces his recently published book on sustainable energy, discussing the impact of "mass delusions" in climate policy. Manheimer also discusses the possibilities of various nuclear reactors, with a focus on fast neutron reactors and their complexities. He explains their advantages in treating nuclear waste and producing fuel, but also acknowledges their challenges, such as producing fewer extra neutrons and requiring more expensive nuclear infrastructure. Manheimer then discusses fusion and fusion breeding, expressing his belief that it may be the best use of fusion and the potential of breeding to supplement fossil fuels. Throughout the discussion, Manheimer raises concerns about the challenges faced by fusion research and specifically mentions the setbacks of privately-funded fusion startups. He also criticizes the lack of adaptation to utilize fusion in the energy sector and proposes changes to enable laser fusion

  • 00:00:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, retired senior scientist Wallace Manheimer reflects on his long career at the Naval Research Lab, spanning over 53 years. He expresses pride in his contributions to science, despite no longer being on the payroll, and shares his current focus on fusion and fusion breeding. Manheimer believes that fusion breeding, which has been overlooked by both the fusion and fishing communities, is the most likely option for achieving the world's energy needs. He aims to bring the mid-century world population of approximately 10 billion people up to Western standards, requiring a significant increase in power production, and urges the less developed parts of the world to make efforts to improve their energy use, regardless of the source. Manheimer underlines the importance of acknowledging and supporting diverse sources of energy as the world works towards meeting the goal of tripling the current energy production
  • 00:05:00 In this section of the podcast, Wallace Manheimer discusses energy efficiency and the use of coal and other non-renewable sources in less developed countries. Manheimer explains that the process of converting certain forms of energy, like hydro to coal, can lead to significant energy loss. He also mentions that even with the use of highly efficient technologies, such as electric cars, the overall energy efficiency is similar to that of gasoline-powered cars due to the energy required to produce the electricity. Manheimer then shares quotes from Chinese and Indian leaders expressing their desire to match Western energy usage levels and their belief that the phase-out of fossil fuels would hinder sustainable development. He concludes by introducing his recently published book on the topic, which is available on Amazon
  • 00:10:00 In this section of the Wallace Manheimer interview on the Tom Nelson Pod #185, Manheimer discusses his book on sustainable energy and the harm caused by what he calls "Mass delusions" in climate policy. He mentions the false fear of a climate catastrophe and how it impacts the implementation of renewable energy sources, such as wind farms. The second part of the book explores roadblocks to achieving sustainable energy, including the fear of a climate catastrophe. The last two sections focus on nuclear energy and fusion, highlighting the importance of nuclear power in meeting the world's energy needs and the potential of fusion breeding to supplement fossil fuels. Nuclear power is described as a process of adding a neutron to a uranium atom to create instability, resulting in the release of neutrons and highly radioactive fragments like barium and krypton. These neutrons can initiate a chain reaction, making nuclear power a promising solution for meeting the world's energy demands
  • 00:15:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185," the speaker discusses the vast amount of energy produced in nuclear reactions, specifically those in light water reactors. With roughly 200 million electron volts of energy, these reactions produce about 10 million times more energy than a chemical reaction. Light water reactors, of which there are about 400 worldwide, use tonnes of uranium-238 and a smaller amount of uranium-235 for fuel. When the reactor runs, it generates a gigawatt (gigawatt is a billion watts) of power through the burning of uranium-235 and, later, plutonium produced from the uranium-238. The nuclear fuel, primarily uranium-235, is not a proliferation risk due to the large amount of uranium-238 present. The reaction produces neutrons, some of which are used to continue the chain reaction, while others can be used for breeding plutonium. After a year, the fuel needs to be refueled due to efficiency losses and the production of highly radioactive fragments. The estimates for available nuclear fuel vary from 60 to 3000 terawatt years, enough to supply power for several decades
  • 00:20:00 In this section of the podcast, Tom Nelson discusses the possible need for breeding fuel to sustain nuclear power production due to the limited lifespan of nuclear fuel. Experts such as Ralph Moyer and Dan Hermannly have expressed concerns that there may not be enough fuel for nuclear power demand in the future. Moyer suggested that the need for breeding fuel could come much sooner than anticipated, even at current electricity usage levels. Fast Neutron reactors and thermal thorium breeders are potential options for breeding, but fusion could also be used as a breeder due to its fewer demands on the fusion device and advantages over other breeders. Experts in the field are actively advocating for various breeding solutions to power civilization at 40 terawatts and beyond
  • 00:25:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185," Wallace Manheimer discusses the possibilities of various nuclear reactors, with a focus on fast Neutron reactors and their complexities. He mentions that while thermal and Fast Neutron reactors, along with thorium breeders, can sustain civilization's power needs for several thousand years, the potential advantages and challenges of fast Neutron reactors lie in their reaction path and requirements. Fast Neutron reactors do not slow down the neutrons before they react, which results in a much lower reaction rate compared to thermal reactors. To maintain the reaction, they typically use liquid sodium as a coolant, which is not the easiest industrial material to work with. In return, they can breed a small amount of additional nuclear fuel and can burn any actinide, such as Uranium-238. However, the integration and maintenance of fast Neutron reactors are more complicated and expensive due to their high energy requirements and unique characteristics. Examples of fast Neutron reactors include the Super Phoenix in France and the BN-600 and BN-800 in Russia
  • 00:30:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185," Wallace Manheimer discusses the advantages and disadvantages of fast neutron reactors and thorium breeders, specifically in the context of nuclear waste treatment and fueling nuclear reactors. Fast neutron reactors have the advantage of burning any actinide, including plutonium and uranium, without distinction, and thus, they can play an important role in treating nuclear waste. However, they have the disadvantage of producing fewer extra neutrons, requiring twice as many fast neutron reactors to fuel one thermal reactor. Thorium breeders can fuel themselves and could potentially create a nuclear infrastructure where every reactor is a thermal reactor, requiring only thorium as fuel. This could be an advantage given the abundance of thorium and the complexity and cost of fast neutron reactors. However, thorium reactors produce a mixture of uranium and thorium, which could present a greater proliferation risk due to the ease of separating uranium from thorium. Manheimer then goes on to discuss fusion and fusion breeding, stating that a fusion reactor without breeding is the most studied alternative but that breeding may be the best use of fusion, which he claims expertise in
  • 00:35:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, Manheimer explains the concept of fusion breeding and the role of the tritium nuclear fusion reaction in producing new nuclear fuel. The tritium nucleus, which has one proton and two neutrons, undergoes fusion with a helium-3 (alpha particle) nucleus, producing a helium-4 nucleus, one neutron, and releasing energy. The energy and the neutron produced can be used to create new tritium atoms through breeding, specifically by reacting nuclear lithium atoms with neutrons. However, containing these particles requires a strong magnetic field or powerful laser, which involves significant efforts. The tritium is not naturally occurring on Earth, adding to the complexity of the fusion breeding process. Despite these challenges, Manheimer notes that fusion breeding could address the fuel problem that exists in fission reactions, making it an ideal solution. The fusion reaction itself generates a single neutron, but due to its high energy, it can produce additional neutrons, allowing for the breeding of U-233 uranium nuclei from thorium atoms, creating fuel for existing reactors. The fusion reaction produces fuel for 10 times more energy than the breeding reaction, making it a promising solution for nuclear energy production
  • 00:40:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185," Manheimer discusses the importance of Fusion breeding in powering large numbers of thermal reactors and avoiding the potential stranding of nuclear power plants due to fuel depletion. He explains that a single Fusion breeder can produce fuel for five to ten thermal reactors of equal power, making Fusion breeding a critical consideration for future energy infrastructure. The use of uranium 233, produced through chemical separation from spent fuel, eliminates proliferation risks associated with uranium 238 in comparison to Thorium reactors. The potential consequences of thousands of nuclear power plants running out of fuel, and the impracticality of using uranium from the seas as a solution, further emphasizes the importance of Fusion breeding. Manheimer also mentions the challenges faced by Fusion research, specifically the machine called E-Cat, which was initially planned to go online in 2016 and produce ten times more Fusion energy than heater energy by 2025. However, construction progress and challenges have delayed these goals significantly
  • 00:45:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding" podcast episode #185 by Tom Nelson, Manheimer discusses the challenges and issues surrounding the ITER fusion project. The project, which involves seven national partners, including the US, Europe, Japan, Russia, China, South Korea, and India, is about 75% complete but faces significant problems. One of the main goals is to create a heater that produces 10 times more power out than put in, which would yield 500 megawatts of fusion power and 170 megawatts of electrical power. However, the heating system is only around 30% efficient, resulting in a significant energy loss, making it clear that ITER will not be a power supply but rather a stepping stone for the next project, called the demo. Another potentially complicated approach is the accelerator approach, which Germany and Japan are studying, but it is much larger and more complicated than the ITER approach. The challenges and size of this alternative approach make it an uncertain and expensive proposition
  • 00:50:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, the speaker expresses skepticism towards privately-funded fusion startups' goals to have fusion power on the grid within a decade. He emphasizes the challenges in achieving the required nuclear reactions and questions the claims of imminent success. The speaker mentions specific startups, such as Helion and Tri Alpha, and their past predictions of achieving scientific break-even and commercial reactors, which they have not met. Despite the setbacks, the speaker commends Lior Lab's successful laser fusion achievement, which made headlines and cost significantly less than traditional methods
  • 00:55:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, the speaker raises concerns about the Department of Energy (DOE) focusing on nuclear simulation and stockpile stewardship rather than energy, particularly in relation to fusion. He criticizes the lack of adaptation to utilize fusion in the energy sector, citing issues with magnetic fusion and the advanced machinery required. The speaker proposes changing some of the energy bureaucracy to enable laser fusion. The discussion then explains the physics behind Livermore's laser fusion experiment, where the laser produces an intense x-ray source to implode a target, rather than the laser igniting the fuel directly. The experiment's unique outcome is featured, as the expanding target does not cool but instead heats up, producing an alpha burn wave

01:00:00 - 01:35:00

In the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, Wallace Manheimer discusses recent promising results from fusion experiments at Livermore Laboratory, including the expansion and heating up of a fusion burn wave. Manheimer also touches upon the challenges of hitting targets accurately in fusion experiments using lasers, proposing direct drive using spherical targets and fast-flowing gas lasers as potential solutions. Additionally, Manheimer explores the potential gains of various laser wavelengths for fusion energy production and the benefits of using fast Neutron reactors to deal with the waste. He advocates for shifting focus from magnetic fusion to inertial fusion, investing in fusion research, and using an "energy park" design to make fusion a viable energy source or nuclear fuel producer for the world. Manheimer highlights the differences between magnetic and laser Fusion, expressing his belief in the advantages of laser Fusion

  • 01:00:00 In this section of the Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding podcast by Tom Nelson (Pod #185), the speaker discusses some promising results from recent fusion experiments at Livermore Laboratory. The experiments showed a fusion burn wave expanding and heating up, suggesting that more fusion was taking place than initially input. The experiments were presented in seminars, with one speaker, Lauren Divol, using a color graph to illustrate the temperature and radius increase. The speaker was in awe of the diagnostic data and compared it to a spark plug in a car, stating that it was an essential 21st-century experiment despite its limitations for energy production. The experiments were funded by sponsors less interested in energy production parameters and utilized expensive materials in the H rooms. To make fusion economically viable, it's necessary to significantly improve the efficiency and reduce the cost of the H rooms. The speaker suggested that it would be more effective to have nearly all the laser light hit the target and emphasized the importance of studying this concept further
  • 01:05:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding | Tom Nelson Pod #185" YouTube video, the discussion revolves around the challenges in hitting a target with accuracy in fusion experiments using lasers. The analogy given is that of hitting a golf ball on a tee vs. dealing with the unpredictable paths in fusion targets. The need for perfectly aligned targets and continuous shots makes it more complex, resembling a batter hitting a pitch rather than a golf ball. Direct drive using spherical targets and fast-flowing gas lasers is proposed as a potential solution. The Neville Research Lab is mentioned as the only group researching this type of laser, with advantages including higher laser efficiency and the capability to follow the particle's implosion with a changing focal length. These developments could lead to Fusion energy ratios with potentially high efficiencies
  • 01:10:00 In this section of the podcast, Wallace Manheimer discusses the potential gains of various laser wavelengths for fusion energy production, specifically using NRL's calculations for a 2 megga laser with argon fluoride. Manheimer estimates that this setup could produce around 500 megga of Fusion Energy. However, the Navy's interest in this technology is waning, and they are considering transferring it to the Department of Energy for civil sector energy production. Manheimer also shares the history of Livermore Laboratory's attempt to achieve a laser fusion gain of 10, but they only achieved a gain of less than 1% in 2012 despite investing significant resources in their calculations and experiments. Manheimer cautions listeners to be conservative with their assumptions about laser efficiency and gain, suggesting that the results from Livermore's experience might not be an anomaly
  • 01:15:00 In this section of the Wallace Manheimer interview on Tom Nelson Pod #185, Manheimer discusses the potential of fusion breeding for producing more power than traditional fusion methods. He explains that breeding reactions, which double the power of a fusion blanket, could produce up to 15 times the initial fusion power. Using the example of a 100-megawatt fusion power plant, Manheimer estimates that with breeding, it could fuel one to ten 1-gigawatt thermal nuclear reactors. He argues for taking a lesson from Princeton's switch from stellarators to tokamaks in the 1960s and advocates for a shift in focus from magnetic fusion to inertial fusion, allocating at least $300 million in the US fusion budget to support both magnetic and inertial fusion branches, but prioritizing inertial fusion. Manheimer believes that inertial fusion has the potential for greater success in converting the fusion triumph into a viable energy source for the world. The Department of Energy Fusion project should learn from Princeton's experience and adjust its priorities accordingly
  • 01:20:00 In this section of the podcast, Wallace Manheimer discusses the importance of investing in fusion research and the benefits of using fast Neutron reactors to deal with the waste produced. He argues that the U.S. should focus on inertial Fusion since the rest of the world is predominantly working on magnetic fusion. Manheimer highlights that the waste from a fusion reactor is mostly actinides, which can be used as fuel for fast Neutron reactors, and about 800 tons of radioactive intermediates with short half-lives. He believes that there's a moral imperative to burn the waste in fast Neutron reactors and proposes an "energy park" concept, which includes a high-security fence, five thermal nuclear reactors, and electricity production
  • 01:25:00 In this section of the "Wallace Manheimer: Fusion and Fusion Breeding" YouTube podcast, Tom Nelson discusses a proposed energy park design that includes five nuclear reactors, a liquid or gaseous fuel manufacturing plant, and a pipeline for transporting the fuel. The cooling pool for intermediate materials like barium and crypotons remains in place for several centuries, while the plutonium-based fuel is replaced and eventually disposed of, unlike the actinides which are burned in a fast neutron reactor responsible for breeding nuclear fuel and burning actinide waste. The design features high-security measures to prevent proliferation risks and produces a total of seven gigawatts of power or fuel power. The layout is based on existing nuclear power plants such as the Bruce Nuclear Power Plant in Canada
  • 01:30:00 In this section of the podcast, Wallace Manheimer discusses the potential use of Fusion not as an energy source, but as a producer of nuclear fuel. Manheimer agrees with a query from Cal Abel that Fusion is expensive, but argues that it could be a solution to potential fuel scarcity in thermal nuclear reactors. He suggests running Fusion reactors at half power and using a breeding blanket to increase power while producing nuclear fuel. Manheimer mentions accomplishments in the past, such as a small-scale Thorium reactor that bred U-233, making it a self-sustaining fuel source. However, he emphasizes that it's uncertain how future nuclear infrastructure will be divided among Thorium reactors, Fusion reactors, and Fast Neutron reactors. Manheimer also touches upon the necessity of Fusion breeding for nuclear reactors with large capital investments in liquid water coolants, as they will eventually run out of fuel and require Fusion-bred fuel for continuation
  • 01:35:00 In this section of the podcast, Wallace Manheimer discusses the differences between magnetic Fusion and laser Fusion, highlighting the challenges magnetic Fusion faces. One such issue is the presence of alpha particles, which stay in the magnetic Fusion device and build up energy. While magnetic Fusion researchers view them as a nuisance, laser Fusion relies on them as an essential part of the process. another issue is the duration of the fusion reaction, as in magnetic Fusion, which is steady-state, the wall is bombarded by 14 Megga Volt neutrons, raising concerns about what may return to the plasma, potentially causing harm. Manheimer expresses his belief that laser Fusion offers several advantages over magnetic Fusion due to these and other reasons and encourages listeners to explore his presentation on Substack for a more in-depth look at his arguments

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